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    The Fall of AV123....

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    mobileusa

    Number of posts : 564
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    The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on February 27th 2010, 2:26 pm

    I am really saddened but pissed from what I read on another site. If Mark really did cheat people then he deserves what he gets.......

    uw69

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  uw69 on February 27th 2010, 3:25 pm

    I know you are considered innocent until proven guilty, but there seems little room to see Mark's activity as anything other than fraud. I really feel bad that I own av123 gear, even though I throughly enjoy my purchases.

    alembic

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  alembic on February 27th 2010, 3:56 pm

    I'm pretty upset with what is taking place with Mark. I always wanted to get in on those raffles to help some people out and possibly win some gear, but now glad I didn't. I hate it for those who are owed.

    I feel a little guilty having av123 gear, but I do enjoy it and at this time can't afford to just dump it and get something else because the pres of the company has been a d&*%^bag! I thought he was a standup guy and was real nice when I met him at the NAGTG. Real shame!

    Thanks Robert for having another site to go to. We will need to get the college football thread going in the fall for sure.

    Hotty Toddy!!! (just for you, Robert)

    Django1

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Django1 on February 27th 2010, 4:04 pm

    Well I have been convinced for quite some time that he had not funded most of the charities. And I was banned from the av123 site for calling him out on it. I was also criticized for driving clients away from av123 with rumormongering. Today I see on the av123 website some new client saying "why did no one warn us?".

    I am quite surprised at the extent of Mark's lying to his friends and long time supporters. I am also surprised that even now some are saying"if only he had a few more weeks he could have made everything right"!!!!

    Sometime today I went from thinking that Mark had simply made a series of bad decisions to right now I'm thinking that he is an out and out swindler. The charities stuff has been ongoing since 2004 and from what Quad has said he was lied to consistently by MLS about the reasons certain charities where underfunded and his intent to "make it right"... Dwayland I think wants nothing more to do with MLS and Jed M has told a story of consistent lies, deceit and attempts at manipulation...

    Stephen

    uw69

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  uw69 on February 27th 2010, 4:55 pm

    I donated maybe $300 to the raffles, which isn't much compared to Craig (tweak city audio). He donated a lot of manoey to a number of these raffles. I feel like a total fool for believing in MLS and his company.

    monkeypimp

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  monkeypimp on February 27th 2010, 5:11 pm

    uw69 wrote:I donated maybe $300 to the raffles, which isn't much compared to Craig (tweak city audio). He donated a lot of manoey to a number of these raffles. I feel like a total fool for believing in MLS and his company.

    I only gave $25 once and never felt comfortable but I wanted to help Derek.

    As for Craig he was the smart one and always sent a check or money straight to the reciepient.
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    Steve_vai_rules

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Steve_vai_rules on February 27th 2010, 6:17 pm

    *edit* changed what i wanted to say.


    man...

    either way.. shitty things... shiiiitty things


    and to top it *i know this is selfish but whatever* my mfw's driver is rattling like friggin crazy

    Matt

    Jed M

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Jed M on February 28th 2010, 1:21 am

    Django1 wrote:Jed M has told a story of consistent lies, deceit and attempts at manipulation...
    While I feel I know more about what was said behind the scenes, it doesn't take that sort of ugly chatter to see the trail of lies. Just look at what is publicly known.

    For all I know he still is, but up until the indictment we know Mark was promising and assuring us it was just two raffles he underfunded. He told us how it was a mistake and apologized profusely and explained it away. He appealed to our emotions just like he did time and time again with raffles and prepays. I know he has told "his friends" much more personal stories and showed "true remorse" because I have a stack of those emails from him. Somehow he could make you actually feel bad for him at the end of his sob stories. He was just so open and candid with the info you just had to believe him.

    Now look at the indictments and how do you reconcile that? Look at how many raffles it was, the amounts and for how long. He promised it was just the last two privately and publicly. He played every single person he sent correspondence to about what happened. In fact, the excuses he used don't add up anymore in the face of what is known. It doesn't matter regardless because the man was willing to lie to everybody, even after the third raffle was confirmed by S/K, he still continued to lie and make it look like people were out to get him.

    Speaking of S/K, he always claimed that he had sent a letter to them and they were getting squared away. Easily verifiable that is just wasn't true, but he knew his "friends" wouldn't question his honesty because he was playing their emotions. Seriously, at first most of us felt bad for MLS. Considering what he had done, that is astounding. Now looking at the indictment, S/K is listed and its clear even without calling them that they were not made whole. They never received any kind of letter from him, but that would require a phone call to verify.

    He consistently lied about censorship on his forums. All of you now are experiencing what most of us "old timers" who were actually asking tough questions were going through. If you weren't there in August or September than you missed all the threads being deleted and members being banned. By the time October rolled around all the malcontents were gone. You are seeing the truth now.

    I am not trying to rehash why I dislike Mark, but I am just trying to say it doesn't take me saying he has a trail of lies. I even know that he is telling a serious half truth to his "friends" about what is happening in two weeks financially for him, but I don't want to go there. I want to focus on what is public knowledge where there is no room for dispute. There are now plenty of glaring inconsistencies in his stories the last few years. The indictment, combined with everything he has ever told us publicly or privately proves that he always believed he could bs his way out of this. Did he tell any of you, even the ones he gave hugs to and was so nice to, did he really level with you, really open up and tell you the truth? Or did he treat you like his best buddy and lie to your face and pull on your heartstrings? Honesty was never his goal and he was just doing what he always did, telling each individual what they had to hear in order to emotionally manipulate them. He just plays the angles.
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    Steve_vai_rules

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Steve_vai_rules on February 28th 2010, 2:03 am

    Well I can't comment on everything you said jed but I have first hand experienced the censorship that is the forums there...

    And of course my reasonless ban... And others saying I was trolling and thus the reason for my ban, or what I was saying had no place on the forums.. Well it seems to me that having an open discussion about the COMPANY OWNERS fraud indictment (sometimes USING the av123 name) IS something that belongs on the company forum.... The purpose of those kinds of forums isn't just for fanboyism! It's supposed to be a place for people to air the good and the bad, albeit in a mature way but still. I was doing nothing reprehensible or distasteful and the people who read my posts, before they were deleted, will agree...

    Matt
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    Steve_vai_rules

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Steve_vai_rules on February 28th 2010, 2:05 am

    BTW emotiva is a good example of a company using their forums to their advantage. Good bad ugly it's all there... And that garners lots of respect from me.. Despite the umc-1 fiasco *currently* I would likely ge that or an XMC-1 once bugs are worked out.. Though I am still planning on getting an anthem D2V for my main thater room.

    Matt

    madpoet

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  madpoet on February 28th 2010, 6:07 am

    Don't be so quick to love on Emotiva, they've done a lot of thread deletion and banning lately too.

    monkeypimp

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  monkeypimp on February 28th 2010, 7:26 am

    madpoet wrote:Don't be so quick to love on Emotiva, they've done a lot of thread deletion and banning lately too.

    I was suspended by Dann G. for a week for bitching about the upgraders not getting their units. I was suspended for accusing them of lying in how they are handling the preorder.....I was told I was being slanderous and libel.

    Jed M

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Jed M on February 28th 2010, 9:43 am

    Emotiva is AV123 lite. Fanboys who cover up the heavy moderation of the owners. Everything seems so personal with them and strange things are always happening there, just like AV123. I may consider one of their products but I would never get wrapped up in a nonsense board like that again.

    gonk

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  gonk on February 28th 2010, 10:06 am

    Emotiva uses their forum to their advantage, but not necessarily to the advantage of their customers. Between the UMC-1 bug discussion (and the bugs themselves), a long tradition of heavy-handed forum moderation, Dann G.'s messy resignation, and the current inability to view the forum at all without logging in (which appears to have been made more difficult by an inability to register a new account), it has been a rough few weeks for Emotiva. I've never been a fan of their forum, and recent events haven't helped improve my opinion.

    I will say that at least Emotiva doesn't appear to be following Mark's lead regarding charities - the fund-raiser they did with St. Jude/ALSAC was apparently a good operation.
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on February 28th 2010, 11:02 am

    alembic wrote:I'm pretty upset with what is taking place with Mark. I always wanted to get in on those raffles to help some people out and possibly win some gear, but now glad I didn't. I hate it for those who are owed.

    I feel a little guilty having av123 gear, but I do enjoy it and at this time can't afford to just dump it and get something else because the pres of the company has been a d&*%^bag! I thought he was a standup guy and was real nice when I met him at the NAGTG. Real shame!

    Thanks Robert for having another site to go to. We will need to get the college football thread going in the fall for sure.

    Hotty Toddy!!! (just for you, Robert)

    I love all of my Onix gear and will continue to buy and use it. Just not a big fan of the X serires and anything with an amp......ROLL TIDE! elephant
    avatar
    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on February 28th 2010, 11:03 am

    monkeypimp wrote:
    madpoet wrote:Don't be so quick to love on Emotiva, they've done a lot of thread deletion and banning lately too.

    I was suspended by Dann G. for a week for bitching about the upgraders not getting their units. I was suspended for accusing them of lying in how they are handling the preorder.....I was told I was being slanderous and libel.

    He was a jeck and I was glad to see him go...his avater made me sick....
    avatar
    mobileusa

    Number of posts : 564
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    BTW....no banning here.....say what you wish!

    Post  mobileusa on February 28th 2010, 11:07 am

    Get it out. Hey the truth is alot of people were hurt and I stuck by him as a brither but I am truly disappointed....fool me once.... Evil or Very Mad

    gonk

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  gonk on February 28th 2010, 1:30 pm

    mobileusa wrote:I love all of my Onix gear and will continue to buy and use it. Just not a big fan of the X serires and anything with an amp......ROLL TIDE! elephant
    The Onix stuff was never really an AV123 brainchild, even if it at times appeared differently based on Mark's forum posts. It's been probably a year and a half or more since AV123 even acted as a distributor for it. And with the new dealer network that has developed, Onix seems to be poised to carry on comfortably and respectably.

    Hugh

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Hugh on February 28th 2010, 2:20 pm

    Gonk,

    As always, you are 100% correct.

    As Onix North America Distributor, I have strict guidelines to my dealers as to trying to regain people's confidence in the brand.

    Hugh

    gonk wrote:
    mobileusa wrote:I love all of my Onix gear and will continue to buy and use it. Just not a big fan of the X serires and anything with an amp......ROLL TIDE! elephant
    The Onix stuff was never really an AV123 brainchild, even if it at times appeared differently based on Mark's forum posts. It's been probably a year and a half or more since AV123 even acted as a distributor for it. And with the new dealer network that has developed, Onix seems to be poised to carry on comfortably and respectably.

    alembic

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  alembic on February 28th 2010, 4:58 pm

    Robert, I have the older x-series. I love the bang for the buck, and believe me, if I could afford some Onix gear I would love to have it. After hearing Patrick's Ninja'd Ref 1s, I was amazed at the sound that came out of those speakers. Truly amazing!

    I was hoping to be around for the discussion tonight, but my wife informed me that we are going to dinner at some friends house tonight.

    Quanah

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Quanah on March 1st 2010, 8:56 pm

    What do you perceive as the fall-out from this? There are obviously issues related to charitable fund raising but beyond that how do you (as a customer) feel?

    1. Are you questioning the value and performance of your speakers/sub (the success was fueled by rave user reviews and commentary by the owner)? In addition to feeling mislead by the cry for charity, do you feel mislead in other ways? Have you changed your perception of your gear?

    2. Are you concerned with resale value or support?

    3. Are you scrambling to spend any left over credit? I wonder if they are experiencing a run on purchases using credit?

    The success of the company seemed to rest on the outstanding user reviews vs. popular competition at higher prices and the enthusiasm built by MLS. What fueld their success would seem to now work in reverse.

    My experience with MLS, the product and service has been positive. I have questioned some of the user hype and even questioned some of the too good to be true user reviews in the early days but for the price I still feel the product is a good value. The combination of wonderful cabinets at affordable prices from off shore with engineering talent from the DIY market seems like a good formula...upgrading those speaker systems with better components would seem to be an even better value...so if the used market softens could their be a value for those taking a chance?
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    Steve_vai_rules

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Steve_vai_rules on March 1st 2010, 11:24 pm

    And tweak audio is going after audioholic.. or ah is going after ta... or something like that.. i don't know anymore.. just too many angry people.. driving me fucking nuts.... the issue at hand is MLS and people are screaming at eachother, and there is bans left and right... oh and i am back to being perma banned for warning a guy about the indictment shit and him just buying his mfw...

    *sigh*


    Matt
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 1st 2010, 11:29 pm

    alembic wrote:Robert, I have the older x-series. I love the bang for the buck, and believe me, if I could afford some Onix gear I would love to have it. After hearing Patrick's Ninja'd Ref 1s, I was amazed at the sound that came out of those speakers. Truly amazing!

    I was hoping to be around for the discussion tonight, but my wife informed me that we are going to dinner at some friends house tonight.


    I gave my sons some x stuff and they love it. I never heard it myself but the build quality is great,

    BTW, Even though you miss the 1st ChatBox GTG, I still love you...!
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 1st 2010, 11:32 pm

    Steve_vai_rules wrote:And tweak audio is going after audioholic.. or ah is going after ta... or something like that.. i don't know anymore.. just too many angry people.. driving me fucking nuts.... the issue at hand is MLS and people are screaming at eachother, and there is bans left and right... oh and i am back to being perma banned for warning a guy about the indictment shit and him just buying his mfw...

    *sigh*


    Matt


    It's nice to be loved over here...
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 1st 2010, 11:36 pm

    Quanah,
    The products are great, as long as it is the older products. The newer stuff had problems especially something that had an amp. If the older Onix products are on closeout, I'm buying. Hugh said last night there are plenty of parts.
    avatar
    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 1st 2010, 11:38 pm

    Steve_vai_rules wrote:And tweak audio is going after audioholic.. or ah is going after ta... or something like that.. i don't know anymore.. just too many angry people.. driving me fucking nuts.... the issue at hand is MLS and people are screaming at eachother, and there is bans left and right... oh and i am back to being perma banned for warning a guy about the indictment shit and him just buying his mfw...

    *sigh*


    Matt

    I noticed the "in house" fighting today. It was pathetic....I love it here!

    alembic

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  alembic on March 2nd 2010, 8:33 am

    Robert

    Thanks for the love.
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 2nd 2010, 9:04 am

    I see where someone has posted a mug shot of Mark....simply pathetic. Although he made bad choices and literally screwed people out of money, there's no reason to shame him like that , justice will do that for him....
    avatar
    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 2nd 2010, 9:04 am

    alembic wrote:Robert

    Thanks for the love.

    Hoddy Toddy bro.....

    kia303

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  kia303 on March 2nd 2010, 3:23 pm

    Well I have been keeping a low profile for quite a long time but I have to speak up. I have been dragged into the raffle mess because I organized one, back in 2006, on the AV123 forum. I now have to provide all documentation that I forwarded all of the proceeds to the charity. So I have spent most of the afternoon on Paypal and my bank website getting the paperwork in order. Fortunately I transferred the money from Paypal to my bank account and then wrote a check. I have to pay a fee to get a copy of that check because my account is paperless but at least I have some way of proving that I did turn over the money. I donated over $500 towards that raffle, paypal fees and a subwoofer and now I have to go through this.

    Add to that frustration, my UFW-12 HR died last week so I am out another $300 that I spent on the upgrade, plus the original cost of the worthless sub.

    I am not entirely pleased with Mark right now!

    Thanks for the new site guys!

    Kurt
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 2nd 2010, 3:35 pm

    Kurt,
    Wow, really sorry man Crying or Very sad

    I always wonder why issues like this come up and involve so many innocent people like you. It must be real frustrating for you to have to go through this. That is the main reason for this site I set up a year ago. I had a feeling something like this would happen....but certainly not to the level it has. If I can help in any way, shoot me a pm....make yourself at home...

    I just want everyone to be able to get back into their love, music, and not have to deal with someone else's wrongdoings.

    Keep the faith my friend! flower
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 2nd 2010, 3:38 pm

    BTW Kurt...you have every right to be totally angry...but you will come out on top...
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 2nd 2010, 3:40 pm

    I do feel posting his docket and mug shot is pathetic...let justice do its' thing...

    revenge is not my thing...God does it for me Wink

    gonk

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  gonk on March 2nd 2010, 3:42 pm

    I heard earlier today that somebody from the forum was being forced to compile proof of delivery of raffle funds, and I worried that it might have been you. A corner of my mind has worried since last fall that something like that might happen to you if the raffle stuff ever started going to the courts. I'd noticed that the raffle description made it sound like you had run an independent raffle, and I didn't see you being capable of this sort of nonsense, but it seemed like a nasty place to be. I'm glad to hear that you were able to compile the necessary records. Sorry to hear about your sub, too.

    monkeypimp

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  monkeypimp on March 2nd 2010, 4:47 pm

    mobileusa wrote:I do feel posting his docket and mug shot is pathetic...let justice do its' thing...

    revenge is not my thing...God does it for me Wink

    This is your first warning to keep the religion in the religion thread. Very Happy
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 2nd 2010, 7:00 pm

    just testing...good job!.....
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    Steve_vai_rules

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Steve_vai_rules on March 2nd 2010, 7:05 pm

    mobileusa wrote:I see where someone has posted a mug shot of Mark....simply pathetic. Although he made bad choices and literally screwed people out of money, there's no reason to shame him like that , justice will do that for him....

    Where's the pic??

    I wanna see this... *for my own sick interests*


    Matt
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    johzel

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  johzel on March 2nd 2010, 7:31 pm

    deleted


    Last edited by johzel on January 6th 2011, 8:48 am; edited 1 time in total

    monkeypimp

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  monkeypimp on March 2nd 2010, 7:43 pm

    johzel wrote:Okay, I have a really naive question as someone who recently arrived at AV123 and purchased some of their products. (first found the website in October, 2009). I'm just an old retired educator who is finding all of this simply amazing. Anyhow, as a rather new person to all of this I've started reading some forums from all over the place. I don't know if you can or want to answer this but just who the heck is this "Chu Gai" person? He's seems to have invested an incredible amount of energy and time into following MLS. Claims to have no AV123 products or direct involvement but appears almost obsessed in MLS and seems to have an incredible amount of knowledge about everything related to Mark . . . I'm finding his apparent tireless passion for taking Mark to "justice" just rather interesting . . . anyhow . . . just curious if you know his "stake" in all of this or what his motivation is, not that I'm saying he's wrong about anything. scratch

    To be honest when Chu was intially pushing all of the 6 months ago or whenever it all started I his secrecy in his identity was what led me to give MLS the benefit of the doubt. But since MLS is now indicted I konw that Chu obviously had the information. And as far a who he is.....that is the grand question. I don't think his information has been revealed to the forum community. He just claims to be someone who dislikes criminals and really dislike criminals who use chartity and the like to steal. So to answer your basic question....I have no freaking idea. If you find out come back here and let us know.
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    johzel

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  johzel on March 2nd 2010, 8:05 pm

    deleted


    Last edited by johzel on January 6th 2011, 8:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 2nd 2010, 8:23 pm

    Steve_vai_rules wrote:
    mobileusa wrote:I see where someone has posted a mug shot of Mark....simply pathetic. Although he made bad choices and literally screwed people out of money, there's no reason to shame him like that , justice will do that for him....

    Where's the pic??

    I wanna see this... *for my own sick interests*


    Matt

    Sorry Matt but you won't see it here...but i certainly understand you're anger Twisted Evil

    monkeypimp

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  monkeypimp on March 2nd 2010, 8:34 pm

    johzel wrote:I apprreciate the fact that if you were lied to, mislead, stolen from, etc. "fascinating" probably isn't the term you'd use.

    I actually find some of the most heinous people in the world to be the most fascinating. I don't confuse fascination with admiration. To me one of the most fascinating people ever was Hitler. Do I admire him...absolutely not, I actually despise the guy. So I do get what your saying.


    johzel wrote: At least from this I was introducted to Walter Lieberman at Underwoodhifi and I've got some incredible items from Walter

    Walter is an awesome guy. I think he doesn't sugarcoat or "sell" you anything. I bought my turntable from him and I told him what my pricepoint was and what I wanted it to be able to do and the features I viewed as necessary. He then said you should buy this one. And went through detail by detail why. He truly seems like a real stand up guy who just wants to make sure you get the right product for your needs.
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    johzel

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  johzel on March 2nd 2010, 11:38 pm

    delete


    Last edited by johzel on January 6th 2011, 8:50 am; edited 1 time in total

    quadman

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  quadman on March 3rd 2010, 6:24 am

    mobileusa wrote:
    Steve_vai_rules wrote:
    mobileusa wrote:I see where someone has posted a mug shot of Mark....simply pathetic. Although he made bad choices and literally screwed people out of money, there's no reason to shame him like that , justice will do that for him....

    Where's the pic??

    I wanna see this... *for my own sick interests*


    Matt

    Sorry Matt but you won't see it here...but i certainly understand you're anger Twisted Evil

    If you're talking about the Audioholics site.... that's a picture/mug shot of the former Sadam Hussein.
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    CloudStrife

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  CloudStrife on March 3rd 2010, 8:08 am

    Hello.
    I like my speakers. They just play music, gun fire, and speech.
    If everything is as it seems, I don't like MLS and hope he is sued for the amount he stole plus some, and that money is given to the original charities. If he serves time okay. If he's put on probation with a ton of service hours, that's better. His reputation with be ruined, so he won't be screwing anyone over again.
    Hopefully AV123 will be bought by someone who will continue to make affordable quality speakers.
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 3rd 2010, 8:24 am

    quadman wrote:
    mobileusa wrote:
    Steve_vai_rules wrote:
    mobileusa wrote:I see where someone has posted a mug shot of Mark....simply pathetic. Although he made bad choices and literally screwed people out of money, there's no reason to shame him like that , justice will do that for him....

    Where's the pic??

    I wanna see this... *for my own sick interests*


    Matt

    Sorry Matt but you won't see it here...but i certainly understand you're anger Twisted Evil

    If you're talking about the Audioholics site.... that's a picture/mug shot of the former Sadam Hussein.

    I saw that. At least there is civility...for now. I'm sure it will show up somewhere, just not here.

    Quanah

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  Quanah on March 3rd 2010, 7:01 pm

    I am trying to get a sense as to what is going on. It is clearly bad but the details beyond the press release aren't clear to me.

    Is there any indication these raffles were never intended to distribute money to the charity or is this an example of good intentions turning bad?

    It is easier to understand how a well intented raffle would not know to get authorization, notify the charity, and even worse mislead the public to think that 100% of the revenue will flow to charity (i.e. no cost recovery for product). If just the profit goes to charity then lack of raffle sales could lead to no money left over for charity. To make matters worse I can see how a cash strapped person might redirect charity cash to cover emergency cash flow needs with intentions of distributing charity latter and this digging a big hole.

    The pre-pay practice is an example of a program that can get out of control. Giving a discount for prepay to help cash flow is one thing but when unexpected delivery delays continue it gets worse...misleading long ETA into a continued comment of soon makes it worse...eventual cancelation or postponement projects w/o refund makes it worse and should the company fail and never deliver people really get hurt from what never started as a lock of sincere intent to deliver. I'm not saying any of this is true but clearly there were prepays, on going delays in delivery, many eventual deliveries and happy customers but now there are probably many prepays with a lot of concern. A great example of over extending and aggressivley trying to manage a situation that is spirally out of control.

    While this is easier for me to understand it does not excuse the behavior.

    The alternative is that the raffles were initiated as purely a money making raffle with no intent of paying charity. The charity names would have been used to simply motivate ticket sales....an even worse scenerio.

    If I'm reading correclty there may be individuals who feel exploited as named beneficiaries of raffles...not sure what that is about. The bigger charity like Katrina probably never knew this existed and may not have ever felt the impact (althought they never got the money folks gave thinking it would reach them). The donators are a victim--especially given the sense of comradery and community MLS built on the forum. These charges can make even non donating community members feel exploited.

    There are also hints of an industry reputation and history of business relationships turned south and parties questing the behavior within those relationships. That seems to result in broader comments about "getting what he deserved". This is not part of the indictment and probably won't be well understood by the outsiders.

    I'm also seeing "tip of the iceberg" comments which reminds me of people getting jailed for something like tax evasion after being suspected of other crimes for a longer period of time. Are there many believing there are even bigger violations?

    When ever someone feels duped they lose respect and credibility for the other person and start to question prior beliefs on other topics--even if there was just one breach of the truth.

    I can understand how I could have a minimal but positive customer experience with MLS while other close business partner could feel exploited and even how he could be guilty of all these charges while still having the best inentions motivating the raffles. I can comprehend it being even worse. Scandal obviously motivates tabloid-like interest...here many have actually met the person and held strong emotional opiniong (good or bad) so the interest in this unfortunate event is natural.


    ....just some thoughts on the topic.....
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    mobileusa

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  mobileusa on March 4th 2010, 6:16 pm

    I'll just never understand someone pre-paying.... Neutral

    Be nice if my clients would pay up front fir some of the commercial contracts we do...

    monkeypimp

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  monkeypimp on March 4th 2010, 6:41 pm

    mobileusa wrote:I'll just never understand someone pre-paying.... Neutral

    Be nice if my clients would pay up front fir some of the commercial contracts we do...

    I don't even do deposits, most of the time. Unless from a well established company like Home Depot or Best buy and even then I hate doing it.

    gonk

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

    Post  gonk on March 4th 2010, 6:49 pm

    Pre-pay? I'd be happy to have "pay within 30 to 60 days of invoice" for most of the work we do... We're still owed a few thousand from one client three years after we sent our last invoice, and they are still calling to ask us for help on getting the project started back up.

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    Re: The Fall of AV123....

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